STEPHEN DIGNAN: We are here with Eric Anderson at his studio in the West Village here to talk about a character by the name of Chuck Dugan. Eric, how did it come about that you came to write the book Chuck Dugan Is AWOL: A Novel with Maps? ERIC ANDERSON: Well, I wanted to write any book for a long time and I wrote two kind of preliminary novels. I didn't know they were preliminary at the time. I thought I was always six months away from being a published author of international repute, but the fact is I was struggling to figure out what kind of book I wanted to write. I just knew I wanted to write books. So in re-writing the first novel that I had written, I knew I needed to do something to kind of jolt myself out of the complacency I had kind of gotten myself into and one way I did that was that I started making maps of the setting. And that was where I went to college, Georgetown, in Washington DC. And I had seen an army survey map of Georgetown in a flower shop window. I was walking up the street and I saw it and it was like an electrical shock. I was such a perfect thing to see. It was such a perfect overview of my setting. And in seeing it I had remembered how many of the book I loved as a kid, they all had setting maps. And somehow I had flaked on that idea. I forgotten the fact that that was one of the great thing that I loved in books. So I marched myself in there and I asked them how much it was and it was a little less than a thousand dollars and I thought, well, thank you very much and I got on a bus and I went to a toy shop up Wisconsin avenue which was the only place I knew that had art supplies and I bought very simple art supplies, a little water color set in the little plastic case with the little discs of dried up paint and maybe a little kid brush. And then I bought something. I didn't really know why I bought but it but I felt I needed a good artistic pen of some kind. So I bought the old nib, quill, dip-it-in-the-ink-pot pen which a lot of artists use a lot of illustrators use, but I would never have chosen that first if I had know what I was doing. And I didn't. But I bought these art supplies and went home and started making Georgetown maps right that afternoon. And I could make pretty good, from-memory Georgetown maps. SD: Because you knew it so well. EA: Because I knew it so well. And the neighborhood meant a lot to me. Anyways, that book was doomed to the drawer. It was doomed to not go anywhere. And so was the next one after that. But I kept making maps because I enjoyed making maps and I made, kind of casually, a map for my older brother for Christmas. That Christmas I made a map of a house where I had been housesitting. And because it was just a kind of free form thing, I was able to include little bits with things that happened and interesting details. And I sort of did it without really thinking about what i was doing, but the reaction was very, very strong. My family, which are probably just more supportive than I realized, no not that, but they're more supportive than your average group I guess. They really seized upon this map that i had made and made me kind of look at it twice and think about doing more of them. And so bit by bit i started making more maps as christmas presents and hen friends began hiring me to make maps and my brother Wes started hiring me to to maps and illustrations for some of his DVDs and then suddenly I made a portfolio, moved to New York, and became this professional map maker for magazines. And not intending to at all, still wanting to be a novelist and just agreeing to do this side job for a while, which became my main job, map making, until I could figure out another novel or the novel, the first novel because I hadn't done it with that first one, or the second one which was like a mystery novel with no mystery and it was still making maps and learning about being less pretentious and just presenting information in a cheerful and interesting way and editing my ideas and it was in kind of being better at presenting things that I learned a lot about writing from making maps. For one thing these map I would make they would frequently have a little sentence or phrase to descriptive something in the maps. And that's the greatest way to learn about writing when you've only got six words that you can fit into a little space you've gotta choose the correct words. And so I think that it really taught me about brevity and good humor and editing and presenting information. And there had been a few short stories I had written and short movies which concern an AWOL person. I wrote one about an AWOL marine. I wrote another one about an AWOL marine. I wrote one about an AWOL naval Academy midshipman. It was like my one trick pony. I had this idea that it would be cool to be AWOL. That was basically it. SD: What were some of the salient feature of the Georgetown map. Do you remember? Was the Francis Scott Key bridge part of that? EA: The Key Bridge was definitely in it. And the streets were there. The university was there. The library of the university. Certain buildings were there. A suggestion of underground passages which I never actually saw then, but the place is alive with talk of underground passages. There is supposedly a tunnel which connects the Capital downtown with Healy Hall, not with Gaston Hall on the Georgetown campus. I think, I don't know, but they say that in case of like the Capital being bombed or something that Congress convenes in Gaston Hall on the Georgetown university campus. I don't know if that's true. But there's also another thing. The Metro, the DC metro down not come to Georgetown. And there's all sort of reasons we hear why. Like some people say, "oh, well there would be rats or something" and people say "it just because it's a rich neighborhood and they don't want the poor elements to make their way into Georgetown" or something snooty like that. And then other people say "it's because there's already tunnels under there and they can't build around them". Anyways, that was some stuff. Then I began changing things. I added things. I added a Marine parade ground and giant sinkhole and another river called the Snake River, or maybe it was the Apache River. SD: And were those fictional things? EA: Those were fictional things and I was trying to include those in the novel. they made no sense in the novel. They did not have any place in that novel or anywhere else, but they were sort of fledgling attempts at creation. You know whole cloth creation. Now I have an entire book of made up maps and I'm much better at making up maps than I used to be. SD: At that point did you have little arrows pointing to events or little phrases that described part of the map, like "this is where so-and-so happened" or was it strictly facts? EA: It was facts. No. I think I had a few things. I had "this is where a fight happens." I had that. And that's a good distinction to make because going from just labeling facts to where things happened, that's the leap to starting to make stuff up. SD: More of a story than just an illustration. EA: Exactly. Right. And that's what the map that I was making were. They told stories. SD: Could you imaging if topographic pas had those kind of descriptions in them? EA: Well, people are already fascinated by maps. Then I think they would just be addicted to maps. If they were that informative. I'll finish telling you about Chuck Dugan Is AWOL. I had the character of the AWOL Naval Academy Midshipman and that's what i wanted to write the book about. And I had all kind of characters. and it was a big job of editing and rethinking. But I was sitting at the New York Public Library in the picture section. They have this thing called the picture collection which is just imagery, random imagery cataloged by subject. And i was looking through images of boxers and shipbuilding and things like that and I found a Norman Rockwell painting of a football player with huge ears, a goofy red crew cut, all banged up, and a huge adam's apple and he's in profile looking goofy but very proud of his injuries. And he has huge, very capable hands despite how gangly he looks. And I thought, wow, there's a great del of contradiction and power in this kid. And up to that point Chuck Dugan, his name was different. His last name was Dugan but he had a different first name. And he had black hair and glasses. And at one point my brother had looked at the prototype cover adn he said "he looks too much like Harry Potter" and I though holy Jesus, I can't have that. So, okay, I'm open to suggestions. So I was sitting looking at this Norman Rockwell painting and i think the black-haired, glasses boy was too English. He wasn't English, he was American but there was something English about him. And in looking at this Rockwell thing of this goofy, red-haired kid I was reminded of the fact that I'm an American. And I've never really tried to write like an American. i tried to write lika e a French writer or a British writer. And these were just pretensions that you go through, And I was staring at this Rockwell painting and having a great connection to it and suddenly feeling so impatient with myself for not being American. You know, because I am personally very American. But somehow in art I was trying to not be American. But the maps were me. The maps were not pretentious, the map were very direct and American and simple. And suddenly I reminded myself to me more maplike in my approach. And i was looking at this red-haired kid and I thought, he's American. This character, this AWOL kid is American. And in fact his name is Charles, the most American name I can think of, no it's not ever, it's Chuck by God. And i wrote in my notebook at that point, "Chuck Dugan is AWOL." Right then I wrote the title and I just knew that's it. And that was a big important moment on the path. SD: So what were some of the novels or young adult novels that you appreciated when you were a kid that maybe perhaps influenced your path? EA: Well, some of them were just stories that I loved. I loved book so much as a kid. i got sick in the first grade and I missed a couple of months of school and during that period that when I really began reading a ton and doing it in the way that I always did which is inhabiting the other world and really wanting to stay there. And re-reading book a lot. So, some of them were, James and the Giant Peach has a big impact on me. The Little Prince had a big impact on me. The Cricket in Time Square. The Great Brain. The Wind in the Willow and Winnie the Pooh, which I think of almost as a series. They're by different authors, but they're connected by the illustrator, Ernest Sheperd, who does and endpaper map of each of those two settings. They're kind of similar. SD: The 100 Akre Wood. EA: Right ... and then The Lord of the Rings, which also has a map of the setting which was made my Tolkien's son Christopher which is one of the great setting maps. it's very detailed and very precise and it also had 85% more terrain that we ever eplore. It's a huge world. And we just do a little line through the middle of it. And we miss all this. Everything from the northwest to the southeast we basically skip. And that was something that I used to stare at, that map, and not really imagine specific thing happening in those other places but seeing whole towns with names and there's just something kind of dreamy, knowing that that a made up place but it feel so real and kind of wishing that I could hide there for a while. There's something about maps and hiding which is very important in my mind. I don’t know what it is exactly. I don't want to get too psychological about it but when I'm making up a map. If I get a feeling that there's a hiding place in there somewhere, i know that I'm on the right track because there's some king of tension or tingle from me that let's me know the thing is coming together in a way that's gonna work. And part of it is knowing where my character would be and where a hiding place is. It sounds bizarre but that's part of the hum and the tingle of knowing that it's gonna be a good map that works for me at least. SD: What about Richard Scarry? We talked about that before. EA: Yeah, he's similar with his labelled things. He does what I like which is it looks type written but I think it's by hand, his lettering. SD: Right. EA: Is it type written? Or is it by hand SD: No, it's by hand. EA: It’s by hand, yeah, which is a very Eric idea. SD: What about Ludwig Bemmelmans? EA: I don't think I was exposed to him. SD: That was later. EA: Yeah, I think I was aware of him at a certain point, but then I only really got a full taste of him when my brother Wes was telling me about his ideas for me illustrating some stuff for the Royal Tennenbaums and one of them was a mural on the character of Richie's bedroom which i think was based on or at least partly inspired by this bar at the Carlyle Hotel called Bemmelmans Bar which Ludwig Bemmelmans had illustrated on the wallpaper of the place. Which makes it incredible..I mean, it's my favorite bar in the world because it's got this children's book illustrations on the wall and it's very expensive but an oasis for me. SD: A glass of champagne's fifteen bucks but it's worth it to pay the extra money... EA: Just to be there. I'm willin' to support the place. I'm willing to give my fifteen bucks to Bemellmans Bar just to make sure Bemmelmanns Bar stays. SD: And they make a great Martini. EA: They make a great whatever. When I finished Chuck Dugan is AWOL, I and some friend met there the afternoon I had shipped the last of the artwork and I was completely worn out. I'd been up for a couple of days. I might have begun crying at the table. I can't remember because i was doing a lot of cry because I was so exhausted. I was sitting there and Chuck Dugan's drink in the book is a drink known as The Panama Canal. It's an invented drink. I had never tested the ingredients. They just sounded good to me. I don't even know what Curacao is. That was one of the ingredients. And a friend of mine said, "why don;t you have them make a Panama Canal and we all knew that was the right idea. And so I wrote the ingredients on a napkin. They were very industrious, very professional. They kept checking with us. "Yessir is the Panama Canal on the rocks?" And I said, "yes, absolutely." And he went away and he returned and said "we don;t have shaved coconut, but we do have coconut rum. Will that do, sir?" And I said, "I think it will." So, they finally brought out this Panama Canal, put it down in front of me, and we're all grinning ear to ear. And I say, "we're each gonna have a sip. we're not gonna say anything. And at the end of it, we'll trade notes." So I took a sip and just put it down in front of the next person, didn't betray my response. It got to the last person who took a sip and then I smiled and said "it's great! That's really good." So I couldn't believe it. But, they even make a great Panama Canal at Bemmelmanns Bar. SD: One could go into Bemmelmanns Bar... EA: Theoretically. SD: And theoretically order a Panama Canal. EA: I like to think that Bemmelmanns bar is such a professional operation that any drink that is ever done there it's just on file. It's in some genius's memory. So i would very much like to imagine that I could go into Bemmelmanns Bar and say "Panama Canal, my good man." SD: The bartenders look like they've worked there since they were eighteen, all of them. EA: Yes, which would put it back in 1948. SD: Right. What else was I gonna ask you? EA: There was another book called “Something Queer Is Going On” which has similar illustrations with label and occasionally a map like thing. Not directly looking down but kind of in perspective, of footsteps traced, and kind of genial, not terribly serious mystery happening in a neighborhood. And that's an idea that's very appealing to me. A whole story happening in one neighborhood. And then you exploring, just completing the neighborhood. It's a setting map idea. SD: It seems like friendship is a theme in Chuck Dugan and loyalty. EA: Yeah. SD: Who are some friends that you had growing up or that you've had since that influenced the way you think and the way you appreciate the world? EA: Well, it definitely...I might have been brought up in a...well, how can I put this? I think I might have missed a few of the essential friendship skills growing up. For maybe...I'm not sure why exactly. I might have had something to do with having parents that were divorced and so there was a certain kind of upbringing that resulted in that. I don't really know about that, but I think I might just have been... I have lots of great friends and some of them are very close to me now. Like I have friend from when i was seven, but at a certain point in my early twenties I was already working all the time, and thinking about writing. And I used to try and make movies as well, but mostly writing. And I was always going off to wherever I needed to be to work. And got very solitary. But still needed my friends. And I started to see that I was a bit greedy and thoughtless where I would disappear and not be available when my friends needed my but I always expected my friends to be there when I needed them. And I just realized that my friends mean too much to me to treat them that way. And so, kind of as an adult, I began to try to develop better friendship habits and Chuck Dugan is very much like the kind of person I would most like to be. Which is loyal, and inclusive, and kind of steadfast. And there was one kid growing up. He was not a very close friend of mine, but we were at the same school and he invited me to his birthday. And his name is actually in the book: Bradshaw. That was his last name. (12:00 elapsed)(102 min left) and he was a great kid. And he was a lot of the things that I wasn't. I was kind of clever and, you know, effervescent or something like that and interesting. But he was plainspeaking and predictable and steadfast and kindhearted and modest. I was none of those. But there was one point where I was invited to his birthday party and it was unusual; he was not part of my little circle in fifth grade or whenever it was. And I went and I bought him a freesbie at maybe even the drugstore for his birthday present. And i knew it was a crumby birthday present. I knew I was skimping on the birthday present. And I went to the birthday party and otehr people were giving him these whole big sets of things and ray guns and all kinds of great booty and I gave him my cheap freesbie. And I felt so embarrassed that I couldn't even give it to him straight. I just gave it to him and apologized for how, you know, skimpy it was. And he didn't bat an eye. he just went straight into telling me how awesome it was, how great the freesbie was. And it was not a put on. he was saying it because he was so kind hearted. And it wasn't a particularly good freebie. It was just a freesbie, but he was such a good kid. Something about him was right and very Chucklike. And I remember that specifically as being a wonderful trait for a kid to have. I'm being hard on myself, but--in that moment--I saw a lesson happening in from of me about kind-heartedness, modesty, and self-sacrifice. I saw a whole range of behavior that I was too selfish and, you know, interesting to have in myself, but I knew I wanted to be that way and I started trying to be more like that. Which is okay. It's okay to learn things from your peer like that. SD: Oh yeah. EA: And be a better kid because of it. SD: I can remember one time. It was a guy that I was good friends with, actually, and his parents were older, you know. His parents were in their sixties and everyone else's parents were ion their late thirties or forties and I remember doing like a mean little kid thing to him and saying "hey, your grandparents are here to pick you up," you know, trying to be funny in front of other kids and just just feeling completely guilt-ridden about that for years and years. And thinking about it every night, how horrible I felt. Because he was a nice guy. And I remember seeing him later and saying "man, you know, I just wanted to say that i am so sorry that I said that thing, that day in front of St. Mark's about, you know, your grandparents are here to pick you up. And he was like "I didn't hear that. I never even knew about it." He didn't hear me, but it was just like you said, all those things you learn about kindness. EA: Yeah, it didn't matter that he didn't hear because you learn whatever you need to learn from being that kid. SD: Right. Everybody else heard. And I certainly heard. EA: Oh, man, yeah. I pulled some whoppers like that. It was all to impress other kids and to be a big shot, but I think I had a smart mouth. SD: And that's the kind of thing Chuck would never do. EA: Nope he wouldn't. SD: No he wouldn't. EA: No he wouldn't. He's not tryin' to impress anybody. He's a good kid. SD: So one thing I wanted to ask you about you say in the beginning of the book. "Acknowledgements. The author is deeply indebted to Mr. P. Kent Correll of New York City for his letters, stories, photographs, and assistance. Tell me about the relationship. EA: Kent Corell? SD: Who is he? EA: Kent Correll went to the naval Academy in the early seventies and he went two years. After you sophomore year, you hit this line in the sand where if you choose to stay at the Academy you owe them the time. Even if you wanna drop out, you're in the Navy. And you can't drop out. You've committed. And, of course, most of the people there are already very committed. And they're living their dream, and they work extremely hard to get in, and so it's not that big a deal. Other people, they come to it and they need to have a rethink. And he was number one in his class at the Naval Academy. He was going to be class of '76. And he chose not to. He chose to go to Harvard. And then he went to University of Virginia law school and he roomed with the brother of a friend of mine, the wife of a guy I knew at Georgetown who was older that me and they knew, my buddy and his wife, knew of my enthusiasm for adventure people, the Naval Academy, and this guy Kent has the Naval Academy, he has law school, he has race car driving, and he has treasure hunting.